Last update regarding the VHS auction on eBay (UPDATES: 2)

June 14, 2020  |  36 Comments  |  by Webmaster  |  The Cranberries

Dear fellow Cranberries fans and collectors,

First, we would like to thank all of you who went out their way to share their thoughts with us by emails, PMs, on our socials or on our website, regarding the eBay listing, analyzing all possible details.

As the auction is to end tomorrow, here is our last recap on the Cranberries World’s plans and all the infos we gathered these last 8 days.

First thing you all need to know is that we contacted eBay so as to make sure we would be covered by their « buyer protection » if these tapes turned out not to be as claimed.
They answered that bootleg concerts are not allowed to be sold on their platform.
A quick look at eBay’s policies and you’ll see that « Counterfeit copies are illegal and not allowed on ebay, examples include Bootleg recordings from concerts. These items may infringe on someone’s copyright ».
Digging deeper, we found out that Paypal lists « items that infringe or violate any copyright » under the « things that are not covered under the buyer protection ».
It is also specified that counterfeit and illegal items are to be « confiscated » and not returned to the seller in case buyer were to ask for a refund, meaning those tapes would be lost forever.
As a consequence everyone has to be aware that buyer is very likely not to get any refund if these tapes do not feature the content that is listed!!!
The financial risk is thus huge, as it now means losing several thousands of dollars.

Nonetheless, The Cranberries World team, with the help of other fansites and fans, has decided to keep going with the initial plan providing that we receive the samples seller stated we will all obtain, as these are more than ever essential to prove what’s on these tapes.
Therefore, we do ask that fans refrain from bidding so that the final price won’t be ridiculously high, especially since we believe that there’s only about a 1% chance that these items are legitimate.
As we now know, seller should be able to send those samples shortly before – or AFTER – the end of the auction, which means we might only be able to make our mind on whether or not these recordings are genuine in the hours following the auction!
If the samples are not received before it ends, our plans are to try to win these tapes whatever happens, and insist on receiving the samples before we send any money to the seller. If he still can’t provide those samples – which we have been asking for since June 5th – 48 hours after the auction ended, we will most likely withdraw, as we believe 12 days are far enough to find a way to send some samples!

Below are the pros & cons that shed light on why the Cranberries World team wants to remain super cautious and won’t be sending any money if samples are not received:

CONS

  • Seller is a new eBay member
  • This listing was oddly listed once, deleted, and re-listed
  • Seller initially told us he had no way of playing the tapes as he had « no VCR to play the tapes on », yet he stated in the listing that his sisters’ “VCR played PAL tapes and I can include it with your purchase if you would like
  • When we suggested he used his sister’s VCR to send us samples, he explained that is was no longer working
  • How could this seller list what’s on the tapes and state the video were of good quality if he had in fact no mean of checking the content himself ?
  • Seller won’t send screenshots before auction ends despite numerous requests from us and others since June 5th (10 days)
  • Seller says in the listing that “Her notes indicate that any show her friends sent to her from outside America was filmed in something called PAL format (…) Anything she filmed was in something called NSTC format” but this is nowhere to be found on his sister’s notes, he also told us there was no other notes and nothing on the back of the note we own, so where did he get this detailed information from?
  • NSTC is wrong, it’s called NTSC, which he should know as it’s the VHS format in his own country
  • The sister would have been in her early 20s when the note was written but the style is very childish like from a very young teenage girl, yet she uses professional grading terms for the tapes
  • The dates on the notes are written in the European way « day, month, year » but she was an American and would have written it « month, day, year ».
  • The writing around the edges of the notes seems to be saying some sort of message, these along with the writing on the audio tape seem to have some meaning for buyers, such as “Can you afford to buy that diamond? Still Can’t
  • On the note The Newcastle 1992 concert says “confiscated” but the performance is still rated and the concert is still for sale on the listing
  • Seller says that some tapes are master tapes and other are copies sent from UK. Where are the originals of the copies? Why haven’t they been traded to other people?
  • How come no big Cranberries collector has never heard of the existence of these shows before, nor ever traded with this US woman or her UK friends? We’re not dealing with a few unknown shows here, but approx 80% of this list is new to all collectors who got in touch with us – even die-hard ones!
  • How come does a collector who trades tapes with her UK friends does not own any of the common bootlegs that were shared back in the days? How odd her 90s collection features only boots that are rare in 2020?
  • How come her UK friends who filmed the shows back in the early 90s do not know that Coventry isn’t in Scotland but in England?
  • How could her British friend would have known about the Cranberries playing support act in Ireland in the 90s when the band hadn’t yet released any material?
  • Why did the seller go into such personal and intimate details about his sister’s passing when these are not necessary for a sale?
  • In the original picture on the listing, all the label sides of the tapes were turned away from the camera, was this deliberate?
  • In the new pictures of the tapes that the seller added, the labels are showing but they look brand new, modern printed, and don’t seem to feature on the original picture
  • In the same original picture there is one tape at the back of the left box that has no labels on
  • The tabs are still on all the tapes (no serious collector would leave them on in case they accidentally taped over them, especially if masters copies!)
  • How odd that the only audio tapes she owns have the only unknown Cranberries song on it?
  • How could she write the only few known lyrics to this unknown song on the Glasgow tape when they were only deciphered last year when the tape was cleaned up?
  • Seller is not answering when asked to send samples of the audio tapes
  • Seller states the tapes were stored well and are in good condition but he can’t verify this and they look dusty and are not in their cases
  • Seller told us his sister « left the damn VHS tapes everywhere, had to put them in and out of the rewinding machine to find the date at the start of the VHS (…) our house was a disaster when she came home on school breaks » – this doesn’t sound like looking after the tapes
  • Seller is not able to tell us what’s the length of the videos and confirms he hasn’t seen them all
  • eBay listing features Féile 1991, but it’s very likely The Cranberries did not play there in 1991
  • Seller uses the Uncertain CD as a proof but a lot of people have the Uncertain CD and it is easily available online
  • Seller told us he wants to be careful with what his sister would have wanted him to do with her collection, yet he writes he’s ready to throw away the Uncertain CD and audio tapes if buyer don’t want them
  • Seller couldn’t tell us his sisters surname because he’s not sure if she used her maiden name or not, all we know is that she was “Jennifer
  • Seller can’t provide sister’s concerts tickets (does anyone know any big fan who doesn’t keep tickets as a souvenir?)
  • There are 7 bidders, the 2 that are doing most of the bidding seem fake as they have 0 and 1 feedback : seller making price climb?
  • Seller sort of confirmed he’s bidding himself as he states he accepts offers and that “If we come to an agreement, you may make the bid on eBay (…) I will accept your bid and end the auction early with the sell to the highest bidder option”. To do so, he would have to bid just under the agreed price to settle the auction this way.
  • Seller says his sister’s tapes are master copies, but they are full size VHS, so how did his sister manage to take a full size camcorder and illegally film so many shows without being caught – unless she was authorized by the band (?)
  • Seller only offered to meet him in Boston to check the content on the tape the day before the auction ends
  • Seller told us he would be happy if those tapes were shared with the world when he is not supposed to know of our plans – does he read CW? He is not supposed to as he is not a Cranberries fan (his sister was, not him)
  • Seller is happy to write words, words, words and some more stories, but never actually sends any convincing proofs

PROS

  • A friend of us does remember trading tapes with someone from Massachusetts in the 90s
  • A few of these bootlegs have been identified by fans as « possibly existing » : Indiana 99, « Edinburg gigs », Wembley 99, Glasgow 94, and possibly Killarney 2003
  • The fact seller agreed on providing more pictures of the tags on the tapes (although it weirdly took him 4 days to take these pics)
  • The sister’s note looks old and faded, with notes that look like those of a real bootleggers
  • Seller found an Uncertain CD showing she was an old fan
  • Writing on the audio cassettes seller found this week fit the writings on the notes and look faded too
  • Ebay listing states there’s a Feile 91 video but the actual tape doesn’t seem to feature a Cranberries concert, only a Van Morrison concert
  • It is possible that unknown material exists and don’t circulate, some rarities still surface from time to time
  • It is common to hear of fans who lost interest after 2003
  • If real, price expected is absolutely fair
  • Seller is open to send samples/screenshots and meet bidders in Boston to play 10 tapes (yet no one has seen anything yet)
  • Why ? Why would someone lose so much time with such scam ? Why would they pick The Cranberries when some other bands could trigger much higher bids ?

UPDATE – JUNE 14

AUCTION HAS ENDED EARLY AT 5.45 PM UK TIME TODAY LIKELY BOUGHT BY A U.S. CITIZEN


UPDATE – JUNE 15

Dear all,

It’s been some intense 10 days for our team, working extended hours to try and find out what was the best way to verify the content of the tapes and make sure these videos would go to the fan community.

As you know, the seller decided to end the auction early, resulting in these tapes slipping through our fingers.
We understand this might be a regret for many of you reading this, however we don’t feel this way as we did consider every single possibility to get our hands on these tapes, including making private offers to the seller; but the financial risk, knowing that eBay hinted that we wouldn’t get any refund through their buyers protection if the content turned out not to be as claimed, was much too important for us considering we were perfectly aware that this would be a matter of several thousands dollars. We were therefore left with no other choice than awaiting convincing proof(s) before engaging financially in this.
It goes without saying that we did also contemplate travelling to Boston to check 10 of those tapes by ourselves or asking friends to do so, but the worldwide Covid-19 situation made it impossible to work out.
If there’s no regret, there are some elements of frustration though, as this means none of us might ever know if these videos were genuine.
The mystery remains unsolved!

Once again, we’d like to thank every single one of you who went out of their way to help us.
Special thanks from our webmaster to: the Dolores O’Riordan Spain team who has been by our side since the earlier stages of the auction, Justin at Cranberries Library, Luis, Jay, Alex, Alan, Andrea, Danny, Claire, Tex, Maurizio, Sören, Paul and Patrick.

Last, we have to say that if we were to go back in time, we wouldn’t have done things any differently, as we truly believe that the most intelligent strategy to obtain these (possible) treasures was to go public and offer the biggest collectors to work hand in hand with us on this.
We’re quite happy of the response of The Cranberries community on the matter, which encourages us to pursue our work at Cranberries World in an effort to build the most exhaustive database about the Cranberries and, of course, keep Dolores O’Riordan’s memory alive.

Thank you.

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36 Responses to Last update regarding the VHS auction on eBay (UPDATES: 2)

  1. Sören

    This listing was ended by the seller because the item was sold!

    Who is the winner?

    • Webmaster

      Seller says it’s a woman who met him yesterday and liked what she saw. He adds she’s “not going to be a jerk and purposely hide them. Contacted me this morning and worked out a deal.”

  2. Ode to Dolores

    “Seller couldn’t tell us his sisters surname because he’s not sure if she used her maiden name or not, all we know is that she was “Jennifer“”

    That is bizarre. It’s uncommon for people here to get married before college, so she almost certainly would have been known by her maiden name when she started collecting/trading. But even so, the seller could have said she could have been known as either Jennifer Smith or Jennifer Wilson (for example).

    Even if these tapes are real, I don’t think the whole story around them has been true. I also suspect that account 0***3 is a shill account. That last bid was added late in the evening last night after the buyer and seller would have met, seemingly to force the buyer’s final bid higher.

    Of course, I hope they are real and that the buyer will share them.

    • Hi,

      Did you run a website called “Ode To Dolores” back in 1997?!

      Only there I found the information that Boston gig played at Avalon Ballroom on October 13th, 1993 has an audio recording!

      Is it you?!

      Best from Brasil,

      Lipecran. 😉

    • Ode to Dolores

      Yes, that is me (Paul). Hello again!

      I should try to find my old hard drives from back then and see if they still work. A lot of people shared live audio on my FTP server (in addition to just downloading my files). Unfortunately I wasn’t able to keep moving it all along to each new computer and lost track of most of it. Fortunately, I think enough people leeched that it is all floating around.

    • Wow, great hear from you!

      I still have that Dolores’ pic at MTV Unplugged used on the main page of your website!
      Unfortunately, as I said, never see anything about that Boston’93 audio recording, only at “Ode To Dolores”!

      See ya!

      Lipecran. 😉

  3. EP

    Best of luck to the winner,
    As many people may know, I was very optimistic about those tapes. I really hope they are real and soon we can have a word from the winner.
    *Now time will tell the truth*. Crossing fingers.
    I think we did a good job, thanks to Camile, Barbara, Jay and Justin to encouraging the team!!

    NOTE: dear winner, if you are reading this, I was about to sell half of my organs to get money for that collection.

  4. wladimir

    Well… more cons than pros.

    …Seller review this post and has ended auction?

    …Winner bidder that appears in ebay is one from this website?

    And 0***3 wins the 2nd place.

  5. Tony

    Well, a seller new to ebay who really looks like an expert to me. Another proof it was a scam. I’m sure the supposed winner is fake too.

    • Ode to Dolores

      What benefit would there be to have a fake winner?

    • Tony

      Because if the seller ends the auction early without winner, then no doubts it was a scam. With a supposed winner, there is always a doubt. Now you can still tell me what benefit would there be hiding it was a scam. I don’t know. Only theories without any proof! Just wondering why auction closed early when price could have obviously climbed so much more.

    • Ode to Dolores

      Good points. Ending early didn’t make financial sense if it was legit. If it was a scam they may have decided to back out for fear of legal repercussions (since the price was getting into major fraud territory if it was a scam).

  6. T.F.

    Masquerade, masquerade! Too many cons to be authentic. I guess the winner/victim will lose a lot of money.

    • wladimir

      If scammer is good, he can know all ebay’s legal gaps.

      Like…

      1) Winner can advice there are no master tapes.
      2) Scammer can jury they are master tapes.
      3) There are no way for test if they are master tapes, maybe if content is real (I think no) the looks in good quality, enough for ebay.
      4) Scammer wins.

      But look:
      « Counterfeit copies are illegal and not allowed on ebay, examples include Bootleg recordings from concerts. These items may infringe on someone’s copyright ».

      A good scammer read this and proceed to end auction, is more difficult to scam.

      Well played.

  7. Emerald

    Boomer, i think CW lost…because all the cons are nothing but just some guess. The winner bought the whole pack and will soon enjoy the material and i really doubt he will share with us. This because i am sure he will meet in person the seller and test the tapes one after another.

    That Easy.

    The result is we lost this opportunity.

    • Emmy

      All the cons nothing. Wow really. They are red flags. Of course the tapes could still be genuine. And i am sure if everyone had the possibilty to see the video sample, every fan including you would have placed bid immediately. For sure it’s that easy as you say when you can watch samples besides the seller in boston. By the way why didn’t you go yourself if that easy. You could have tokd everyone they were genuine. I do believe if the seller failed to probide samples, there is a reason. But if i am wrong and if they are genuine then unlike you i have hopes winner will share them sooner or later.

  8. wladimir

    This auction looks more than a joke for CW and fans than a real auction. Seller knows terms about collectionism like: master, VC, tapes, etc. Also seller put gigs that no one of old school collectors know… so smart….

    I believe I know the modus operani:
    1)Winner won auction
    2) Seller send the box with tapes.
    3) Winner review content… they are not real tapes, no master..ect
    5) While (3) …scammer delete ebay’s account and dissapear with money.
    4 )Winner contacts ebay for refund

    As says here:
    « Counterfeit copies are illegal and not allowed on ebay, examples include Bootleg recordings from concerts. These items may infringe on someone’s copyright ».
    Digging deeper, we found out that Paypal lists « items that infringe or violate any copyright » under the « things that are not covered under the buyer protection ».
    It is also specified that counterfeit and illegal items are to be « confiscated » and not returned to the seller in case buyer were to ask for a refund, meaning those tapes would be lost forever.
    As a consequence everyone has to be aware that buyer is very likely not to get any refund if these tapes do not feature the content that is listed!!!

    5) Scammer is gone and tapes confiscated with no refund.

  9. JP

    For me the weirdest is about the 2 stars concerts on the list. How come true collectors and traders did not know those shows existed. I can understand it for the one star show, not the 2 stars ones.

  10. alexverveboy

    The only female collector from the United States that I have met was Jeniffer Frasca, she had a very large collection in VHS, magazines and audio tapes, her collection is similar to the one I now have on video in vob format , I was in contact with her until 2011 via hotmail and chat on Yahoo after she disappeared and to date I do not know what happened to her, on social networks I have not found her.

    The other collector fan imported from the United States was Cranguy but we all know that he sold his collection on VHS, magazines, audio tapes etc on ebay and websites in 2008 after Dolores sued him. The coleccion de Cranguy and Jennifer in VHS are similar so…

    My conclusion regarding this supposed collection is that everything was an absolute lie created by an extremely intelligent person from the United States, who knew perfectly how ebay works and also how to deal with people’s questions and try to create alibis to try to demonstrate with very basic and weightless evidence that the VHS collection existed.

    That person was very attentive to the comments made on this website of the Cranberries World team to build a story and give it continuity, when it was expressed by many fans and persons that he should show screenshots of some of that material in VHS, he quickly create another story to “update everything and give it a logical and credible context”

    He did not do it and had all the time in the world to do it, he would have even bought a VCR on ebay quickly if he did not have one, also if he did not have VHS at home, how did you know what content each VHS had to put the labels so quickly?

    It was all an absolute lie, created by a guy who wanted to take advantage of the fans’ love for our beloved Dolores and The Cranberries, perhaps this strategy has worked for him with other bands or singers, but this time it did not work because those concerts never existed or exist, so he was never able to demonstrate it with screenshots or any video sample.

    There is no one who has bought his collection because that is also a lie, he withdrew the sale of his collection because he knew that no one was going to buy it because there was nothing and as those who participated in the auction have never existed, it was the same person and maybe with some other people offering and raising the price.

    This is not new I have met many people who claim to have stuff and wanted to make an agreement with me and when I asked them for captures or video samples they refused and when they provided them, the material they offered was false or was not what they described.

    That’s why there are clear rules when making any agreement for Dolores stuff alone or with the band to avoid fraud and something important all my collection was achieved by making agreements never buy anything on ebay because I do not trust that site to get stuff from our beloved Dolores, I always did it with people and fans collectors or non-collectors who really love Dolores Always Dolores.

    Nothing is lost because nothing of that collection ever existed and we cannot miss something that we do not know, now it only remains to continue enjoying what does exist of our beloved Dolores alone or with The Cranberries=)

    • Sander van Duijvenbode

      You’ll be eating your words if it turns out to be completely legit. I don’t think it’s the end of the story.

    • William

      I totally agree with you alex. Only the reason why the seller did all this escapes me. Money?? I am not even sure the winner (or victim as soleone said) is real. That winner with a 122 feedback on ebay could possibly be the real account of that clearly expert seller/scammer. If no money then why all this? I guess we will never have the answer.

  11. Patrick

    Wow, I cant believe the winning bid was $4,250.00. I never would have expected it to climb so high. I don’t think it was worth the risk at that price, so, don’t feel too bad about it guys!

    • Ode to Dolores

      I think the price would have gone a lot higher if they let the auction continue as planned and especially if they showed evidence that this was real. For a collection of 92 shows not otherwise available, about $50 a show seems kind of cheap to me. If the seller really wanted to maximize profit from this, they could have gotten each one digitized so they could post samples and then auction them individually. I could easily see them going for over $100 each on average if listed individually over a few months. Of course, that assumes they were legitimate (and decent quality) and this wasn’t all a scam.

  12. MB

    Thank you guys…. you did your best… we all did our best; and if these videos really exist I guess the buyer have not bought them to throw them away…! I have to admit though that the closure of the auction immediately after the update on this site is souspiscious…. maybe we will never know!

  13. Sören

    I know that the seller offered two collectors to visit him with a VCR. Not at the day the auction ended but already one week BEFORE it endet. Why would he do that then he got nothing to show? Unfurtunatly no US collector was able to go to Boston (!) except the person who won the tapes.

    I am in Europe, otherwise I would have gone to Boston.

    Of course this is not a proof that unreleased stuff is on those tapes.

    • wladimir

      Cause “seller” knew nobody was to go to Boston. If someone would go to there , “seller” just make excuses for no finish encounter.

      I got another theory but I prefer no say it in public.

    • Tony

      Would be curious to read your another theory wladimir. I imagined so many theories myself.

  14. Sören

    Sorry Alex, but I don´t agree with you concerning ebay. Yes, a lot of crap is on ebay, but also greait items like a 1993 Nashville poster that I bought. Not everybody who got interesting Cranberries items is a fan or a member of our community, and because of that, thouse people are selling on ebay. A lot of unreleased footage by other artists has been sold on ebay – not fake but real. Incl. 16mm outtakes from an MGM Elvis concert movie.

    What would you do then you found unreleased Beatles or Elvis footage somethere? Would you contact a fan club, searching for a fan who got money, or would you put it in an auction? I would put on auction!

    • alexverveboy

      Hi Sören regarding that there are interesting items on the band on eBay, it is true, you have said it because you yourself have bought items on that site, what I wanted to say is that since I started making agreements in early 2006 until this 2020 Everything I achieved in special visual or video stuff exclusively in vob format, was through agreements with people and fans from all over the world who loved Dolores and The Cranberries.

      As you know a lot of material from The Cranberries and Dolores is pro shot so it has copyrights so it cannot be sold on ebay or some websites, that is why the agreements between people and collector fans arose to avoid legal problems, the material or stuff in video recorded in an amateur way sometimes fans share the versions with low visual quality on avi, mpeg 1, etc or on youtube but the versions in vob format are exchanged because they have higher visual quality, in the same way that type of material visual is not sold on ebay people and fans prefer to make an agreement via private without intermediaries such as ebay or third parties.

      Sometimes some amateur recorded concerts by fans or shows or live performance have been shared on sites, forums, communities or p2p.

      My passion is the visual material in vob format with the highest possible visual quality of our beloved Dolores alone or with The Cranberries, in 1999 I became an admirer of Dolores and until early 2005 I bought all the official material CDs and DVDs so when I entered the world of the web, all I wanted was visual material exclusively in vob format.

      I respect the tastes of each fan, I know that some love to buy items, other CDs, other LPs, magazines, audio tapes, etc but I love everything visual in video recorded by fans and stuff pro shot unfortunately this type of material is not sold on eBay,only official material (CD, DVD, LP etc).

      That is why this auction made us get excited for a few days because we thought it could be real, unfortunately, as the Cranberries World team expressed, if ebay did not guarantee the refund of the money, it was too risky to buy that collection and perhaps it would have been attempted if the seller had contributed from the start of the auction with screenshots or samples on video but never did.

      And it is strange that he did not want to share screenshots because it was very simple to do it even buying a video recorder (I still have one that works in my house that I bought in 2005 because the others I had broke down and I have about 7 or 8 VHS of The Cranberries that I recorded from 1999 to 2005) and using his cell phone to take some photos on his TV screen or record some small videos to see if those concerts were real, but he never did it, I only created elaborate stories and shared evidence that did not contribute anything since they were out of context, so people and fans asked that it was just one thing… Screenshots!

      It is a golden rule to always share screenshots if someone wants to sell or exchange any video material of Dolores or the band is a concert, show, live performance etc, it is something that everyone does it is disappointing to know that this person never wanted to contribute anything, because as I expressed in my opinion, he never had anything, he just wanted to defraud people, it is sad because he played with the feelings of the fans of The Cranberries and Dolores but this serves as a lesson for the next time,( if there is a next time) to be more cautious and investigate first before getting as excited as it was this time, but from everything you learn so this lesson was useful, do not trust the people who sell collections of The Cranberries on eBay if you do not show screenshots=)

  15. Girl

    Judge me idiot, boyish, naive, but the choice to auction rarities owned and loved by someone who passed away, I never found it a good choice.
    Here, I said it.
    When I wrote my first and useless comment in the other post, I did not understand it was an auction. In my opinion, assuming that the very rare material was true, it would have been more elegant to establish a high price from the beginning, accompanying the announcement, as you say, with unequivocal photos etc.
    I hate to make this speech, since everyone in this world can have his own reasons and make his own mistakes, and I don’t like to judge this supposed seller.
    So what? Ultimately I will prefer to think that the material was real and that the choice of the auction was perhaps a bad advice from a friend of his or something.

    Once again, sorry for any errors in english

  16. WarChild/Human Spirit

    A BIG Thank You to Cranberries World for all of the hard work and time you spent on this and for all of your every day dedication to The Cranberries and Cranfans!!!

  17. MIke Sniadecki

    Wow I remember Ode To Dolores website I visited back in late 90’s was awesome! MIDI’s and a lot of cool stuff back then

    • Ode to Dolores

      Thanks! 🙂

      The internet was a simpler place back then. I’d like to think that I at least contributed a lot to the spread of the live audio that existed at that time.

  18. wladimir

    I tried to message seller, no response till now. Was a bad joke

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